Curse

Snow Bunny · May 14, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Thank god Dome has the right idea here.

[frenzy] is the only option here.

I have a pretty good screenie somewhere of Tab and I burning through FoW HM with frenzy warriors and some good hero builds.

Axel Zinfandel · May 14, 2009, 05:07 AM // 05:07

I'm going to suggest something no one else has.

Since you're using Primal Rage, I'm guessing you don't mind using an elite for IAS.

IF you don't mind stopping to cast it [Soldier's Fury] is fully maintainable, has added adrenaline gain, and is an ECHO, which means you can still use any stance you want with it. Working with having a shout up all the time is not that very hard ([For Great Justice (PvE)], [I Am The Strongest], [Watch Yourself (PvE)])

If you do mind casting it, there's always [Soldier's Stance].

As for non elites, either listen to the people in this thread or stop whining and consider the fact that you might be Doing it wrong

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

[grasping earth]

sup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I think Ark has the right idea in mind... use snares and then you can flail away.

Missed the point entirely. After I kill something I have to find a new target. Doesn't matter if they are snarred or not, if I don't teleport to the new target, then I have to walk to it.

If I use an energy stance swap I lose 1 adren while attacking to activate flail, then 5 energy to swap to move to the next target. 1 adren and 5 energy per mob.

If I use rush to swap I lose 1 adren while attacking to activate flail, then one adren on the swap, putting me 2 auto attacks away from using skills on the next mob. 2 adren per mob.

If I don't swap out of flail I lose several auto attacks while walking; also the adrenaline that would be gained off of those attacks.

Adrenaline isn't free. Constant stance swapping is expensive, even if its cost isn't in energy.

Improvavel · May 14, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Missed the point entirely. After I kill something I have to find a new target. Doesn't matter if they are snarred or not, if I don't teleport to the new target, then I have to walk to it.

If I use an energy stance swap I lose 1 adren while attacking to activate flail, then 5 energy to swap to move to the next target. 1 adren and 5 energy per mob.

If I use rush to swap I lose 1 adren while attacking to activate flail, then one adren on the swap, putting me 2 auto attacks away from using skills on the next mob. 2 adren per mob.

If I don't swap out of flail I lose several auto attacks while walking; also the adrenaline that would be gained off of those attacks.

Adrenaline isn't free. Constant stance swapping is expensive, even if its cost isn't in energy.

So you are saying that when you fight the mobs are scattered all over the place?

They don't seem to be snared or body blocked then, because if they are snared or body blocked they aren't going to either be far from you nor will they walk faster than you when you are in flail.

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I prefer to killdoze a zone in half the time it takes to tank and spank.

Unless you pull, which takes time to set up, the mobs aren't going to be fixed on the warrior.

It doesn't matter if the target that is over there is snared. It is over there, I still have to be adjacent to attack it.

I'm trying to point out that flail has a very high cost for its IAS.

Improvavel · May 14, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I prefer to killdoze a zone in half the time it takes to tank and spank.

Unless you pull, which takes time to set up, the mobs aren't going to be fixed on the warrior.

It doesn't matter if the target that is over there is snared. It is over there, I still have to be adjacent to attack it.

I'm trying to point out that flail has a very high cost for its IAS.

So the warrior going in front is tank and spank now?

Does your team all run quite happy in a ball to the enemy mob? Even with an imbagon, imbagons don't have adrenaline at the start of the battle for SY!

When I play with warrior I go in front, either pre-protted, either pull or do a semi circular trajectory to body block the enemy if any geographical features are present. And its not hard to distance yourself from the backline with enraging charge.

If on the other hand, you go all happy in a ball I guess everyone is pretty close anyway.

Yes, flail has a cost, but so do any of the other IAS. Frenzy, for example, also cost the same 5 energy and to lose an adrenaline strike when you cancel it.

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

If your warrior is going so far ahead to pull and hold aggro, then yes it is tank and spank. If your warrior is not holding aggro, then the mobs aren't going to be all balled up.

At least with frenzy I'm not limping to my next target, so I only need to swap when taking damage not every time I need to move.

Do this before you come back and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Do a mission or a zone or something. Count how many times you cancel flail and have to reactivate it.

This is what we did, we ran a killdozer (5 warriors) in FoW shortly after flail came out. We figured "oh mobs in pve ball and don't kite." We thought this would be as good as the old tiger's fury days. With flail/rush it took us about twice as long as the old frenzy/rush.

Improvavel · May 14, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

If your warrior is going so far ahead to pull and hold aggro, then yes it is tank and spank. If your warrior is not holding aggro, then the mobs aren't going to be all balled up.

At least with frenzy I'm not limping to my next target, so I only need to swap when taking damage not every time I need to move.

Do this before you come back and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Do a mission or a zone or something. Count how many times you cancel flail and have to reactivate it.

This is what we did, we ran a killdozer (5 warriors) in FoW shortly after flail came out. We figured "oh mobs in pve ball and don't kite." We thought this would be as good as the old tiger's fury days. With flail/rush it took us about twice as long as the old frenzy/rush.

No I don't use rush with flail. I generally knock them down or snare them. I don't see them running.

And FoW is the ubber damage place! Quite dangerous to use frenzy in there compared to gwen or NF...

Bobby2 · May 14, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

[frenzy][battle rage]: never feel guilty about canceling again!

Neo Atomisk · May 14, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

if people are so worried about crip and 40 AR, why don't they just run flurry?
but seriously, ias is completely unnesecary in pve.
run around with sprint and you'll do fine, you don't need that 1 second dchop activation.
i've found that just calling the targets with a spear, in HM with h/h works fine.
tl;dr you dont need ias.

DeBron · May 14, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

if people are so worried about crip and 40 AR, why don't they just run flurry?
but seriously, ias is completely unnesecary in pve.
run around with sprint and you'll do fine, you don't need that 1 second dchop activation.
i've found that just calling the targets with a spear, in HM with h/h works fine.
tl;dr you dont need ias.

tl;dr? Let me compress it for you:
33% IAS = 50% more hits = 50% more DS+SY! or ES = more winning.

Neo Atomisk · May 14, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

you can't charge SY! in 5 seconds without ias?
where are you getting +50 from? its +33%.
and i'd rather go around quickly, spamming dslash, and maintaining SY over being cripped or forcing prot/bond from my monks.

DeBron · May 14, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

When a skill states you "attack 33% faster" it actually reduces your swing time by 33%, effectively increasing your attack rate by more than 33%. Actually closer to 50%.

1.33 seconds (sword swing time) is reduced to 0.89 seconds.
1.33 / 0.89 = ~1.5

Paul Dawg · May 14, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

That's correct. The wiki (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/IAS) actually says 0.88, but I don't see how that can be right. 1.33 x 0.67 = 0.89.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeBron

When a skill states you "attack 33% faster" it actually reduces your swing time by 33%, effectively increasing your attack rate by more than 33%. Actually closer to 50%.

1.33 seconds (sword swing time) is reduced to 0.89 seconds.
1.33 / 0.89 = ~1.5

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Please stop talking about snares and KD. Those work great to keep your current target from kiting, that's not what I'm talking about. I have zero problem using flail on a single target, its the next target that causes problems. No matter what, your next target is not at the same location as your current target, which means movement in flail or switching stances. The former costs extra swings while the latter costs adren and energy; in either case flail is terribly ineffecient.

Neo Atomisk · May 15, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

endurance scythe+asuran scan+sprint
you get 1.75x dmg and almost perma 25% ims to switch targets.
if cancelling bothers you, don't use it.
i run a combo similar to the above and i think i get higher dps than most.

Axel Zinfandel · May 15, 2009, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Please stop talking about snares and KD. Those work great to keep your current target from kiting, that's not what I'm talking about. I have zero problem using flail on a single target, its the next target that causes problems. No matter what, your next target is not at the same location as your current target, which means movement in flail or switching stances. The former costs extra swings while the latter costs adren and energy; in either case flail is terribly ineffecient.

I'm sorry, this is Guild Wars, not Dragonball Z, you can't just teleport from person to person. If you don't want to run target to target then don't play melee. it's that simple. You're either going to use adrenaline to cancel stance or energy. period. get used to it and stop QQing.

Also, you're not even the original poster, so stop assuming everyone is talking to you. You aren't that important.

MisterB · May 15, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I'm sorry, this is Guild Wars, not Dragonball Z, you can't just teleport from person to person.

Shadow steps.

On topic, I like Flail. Most of the time I use [Drunken Master] because I have the booze to burn.

Neo Atomisk · May 15, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

oh crap i forgot to suggest flail+death's charge in my last post.
can we use spirit bombs then?

Reverend Dr · May 15, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

You're either going to use adrenaline to cancel stance or energy. period.

That is my point!

Using flail means you are going to have to swap stance all the time. It is extremely costly and no one takes it into account. Everyone's thought is adrenaline is completely free and I'm just trying to point out that flail has a lot higher cost that most people aren't seeing.

I'm not QQing that a melee has to move. Some people are acting like bringing snares or KD is somehow going to mean that you don't have to switch stances between targets.

DBZ is p cool, my favorite episode was when Neo fought Agent Smith.